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Poster: Jack o' Roses Date: Mar 11, 2011 5:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Thanks for the post.

If you understand the power of prayer, stop what your doin' (& get on your knees) & pray.

Do be selfish or think yourself foolish. Just do it. Now,

Peace & Love,

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 11, 2011 7:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this supposed deity you insist we should all be praying to not in fact the self-same deity who you believe made the world, but apparently did it in such a cack-handed way as to make earthquakes inevitable?

If it's all the same to you I'd rather put my faith in the skill, determination and bravery of the search and rescue teams around the world who stand ready to give their assistance.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Mar 11, 2011 8:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

In the words of the Lizard King (not a guy I much admire):

"YOU CANNOT PETITON THE LORD WITH PRAYER!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XlqCFi6o-E

A close friend of mine flew to Japan on Wednesday to go see his girlfriend and 6 year old daughter and was to fly back with them next week. My thoughts are with them and I wish them the best. But I'm with the wordsmith on this.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Mar 11, 2011 2:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

And the "Lizard King" is definitely on my short list of people to consult on "God" matters...NOT!

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Poster: snori Date: Mar 11, 2011 8:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Well said Rob. I was thinking along the same lines but you beat me to posting. You hear the same thing after every natural disaster - and no-one seems to be able to understand the contradiction.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Mar 11, 2011 8:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

I'm with Rob and BD on this. You can poop in one hand, and pray in the other hand, and see which happens first.

I would also mention that we have several fires raging yesterday at Japan's nuclear power plants after this Quake. This may possibly turn into the worst Nuclear Accident in history? Yet more PROOF that Nuclear Power is NOT SAFE for planet Earth!

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Mar 11, 2011 11:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Japanese authorities will release slightly radioactive vapor to release pressure at a disabled nuclear power plant reactor near Tokyo.

Japan's massive earthquake caused a power outage that disabled a nuclear reactor's cooling system, triggering evacuation orders for about 3,000 residents as the government declared its first-ever state of emergency at a nuclear plant.

Japan's nuclear safety agency said pressure inside one of six boiling water reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi plant had risen to 1.5 times the level considered normal. To reduce the pressure, slightly radioactive vapor may be released. The agency said the radioactive element in the vapor would not affect the environment or human health.

After the quake triggered a power outage, a backup generator also failed and the cooling system was unable to supply water to cool the 460-megawatt No. 1 reactor, though at least one backup cooling system is being used. The reactor core remains hot even after a shutdown.

The agency said plant workers are scrambling to restore cooling water supply at the plant but there is no prospect for immediate success.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said the 40-year-old plant was not leaking radiation. The plant is in Onahama city, about 170 miles (270 kilometers) northeast of Tokyo.

If the outage in the cooling system persists, eventually radiation could leak out into the environment, and, in the worst case, could cause a reactor meltdown, a nuclear safety agency official said on condition of anonymity, citing sensitivity of the issue.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42032703

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/03/japan-to-release-radioactive-vapor-at-disabled-nuclear-reactor/1

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Poster: dark.starz Date: Mar 12, 2011 4:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

NOAA states the fissure in the Earth was 50 Miles wide and 150 Miles long and that the Ocean water just fell right in this massive crevice before the wall of Tsunami swirl began. USGS reported this quake as being 1000 times stronger compared to last months 6.3 event in Christchurch New Zealand.

It's a sad day for all the good people of Japan. Island countries such as Haiti, Indonesia, New Zealand and Japan are extremely vulnerable to the wrath of natural disasters.

Perhaps Mother Earth has become angry with the constant raping of her resources and the disgusting pollution that us humanoids have created.

Certainly, Karmatic retribution due to the Government of Japan from the Ocean's can never be understated for the senseless slaughter and near extinction of the Blue Fin Tuna species and the senseless murder of those thousands of Dolphins in the Cove of Taijii.

With the wide sweeping power outages across this devasted country perhaps Mitsubishi can feed the people for weeks to come with the stockpiles of Blue Fin Tuna that is stored in their climate controlled wharehouse's.

The economic repercussions from this disaster will be felt for decades to come.



This post was modified by dark.starz on 2011-03-12 12:58:53

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Mar 11, 2011 1:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

While not wanting to disagree with your basic sentiments here, actually "karmic" explanations are not a lot more helpful than "God smited them."

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Poster: dark.starz Date: Mar 12, 2011 12:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

The government comment is just an observation; there is no correlation between natures wrath and karma unless you believe in the silly bible stories. And if that comment is viewed in poor taste at this time, well i'm man enough to apologize, so there!

However, there is a correlation between the delicate connected balance of all things in the Universe and what humans are specifically doing to this planet in terms of raping natural resources, burning fossil fuels, creating non-organic by-products such as plastic and other chemical and toxic waste materials, nuclear waste, let alone the absurd piles of garbage that we all generate that are indeed throwing off the "chi" of the whole global project.

There are few clear and understood explanations of what is, or how the "higher order" of this Universe functions let alone the great mysteries that we may never understand and remain in awe of. I simply saw an opportunity to get "political" and went for it. If you wish, we could revisit the cause and effect of why the US got dragged into WW2?

And i would never attempt to undermine the tragic loss of life here. There are reports circulating that thousands of people are missing.



This post was modified by dark.starz on 2011-03-12 20:27:55

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Mar 12, 2011 5:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

I dunno, I'm not making statements on the higher order of the universe etc. I just get queasy when talk turns either to God punishing people by sending natural disasters. Saying it is nature taking revenge and that sort of thing is not really a whole lot different. Nature isn't mad at us, nature isn't punishing us, these things DO have a natural explanation and it probably doesn't involve any concern for human affairs at all.

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Poster: DeadRed1971 Date: Mar 11, 2011 2:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Last night I was sticking pins into my voodoo doll of Maggie Gallagher of the National Organization for Marriage, and at that very moment comedian (Leo) Gallagher collapsed onstage during a performance.

Explain that.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Mar 11, 2011 2:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

It's all part of the cosmic unconsciousness...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4QKiYar9pI

With thanks to Mike Nessmith

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Poster: DeadRed1971 Date: Mar 11, 2011 6:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Me and my Terps bow down to you this night, your royal flatulenceness.

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Poster: DeadRed1971 Date: Mar 11, 2011 1:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

I agree.

"Shit happens" makes a lot more sense.

Blue Fin Tuna, yum!

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Mar 11, 2011 8:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Retribution for the slaughter of whales? Hmmm. That new crew member of the Sea Shepherd does have a surprisingly long white beard ...



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Poster: dark.starz Date: Mar 12, 2011 12:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

"The Cove" documentary film.

http://www.thecovemovie.com/the_cove/synopsis.htm

Jim Clark was a client of mine some 23 years ago who had a couple of successful Silicon Valley start-up's with Silicon Graphics and Netscape. Incredibly intelligent, he would spent endless hours discussing his passion for sailing and the latest yacht he was building which made it very difficult to keep the conversation focused on business. He taught me the art of zen in business, that sometimes you have to detach emotionally from the outcome and just go with the flow.

"The Cove" documentary film was recommended to me last year by a friend who eventually broke into tears. When i looked this film up and realized that Jim had produced it i felt a sense of urgency to view. I had no idea about these man made crimes against nature;

Get-it to get-it > Netflix.

Daring animal activists arrive with surveillance equipment at a scenic cove in Taijii, Japan, to capture footage of a secretive and heavily guarded operation run by the world's largest supplier of dolphins. As the group sets out to expose the horrifying truths behind the capture of dolphins for the lucrative tourist industry, they also uncover an environmental catastrophe.





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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Mar 11, 2011 8:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Whatever one's perspective on karma, spirituality and/or the cack-handedness of deities, these are such pointed and profound opening lines -- and right to the point here. Not a Jackson Browne fan, but this is a great and haunting song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIDIBpeIaIc

God is great, God is good
He guards your neighborhood
Though it's generally understood
Not quite the way you would ...

And no, the poster in this YouTube link isn't me! Hmmm, was that you? :-)

This post was modified by AltheaRose on 2011-03-12 04:46:04

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Mar 12, 2011 5:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

I gotta look up the rest of those lyrics before I can comment :) I'm not sure what he's saying.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 11, 2011 3:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Watch the incontinent use of the caps key. It makes you look like a fundamentalist bozo and totally undermines your argument. No wait, with your adherence to the pathetic fallacy in attributing human characteristics to natural events you are a bozo.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Mar 12, 2011 6:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Japanese official says reactor not damaged after explosion

8:37 AM, Mar 12, 2011
written by the Associated Press

Japan's government spokesman says the metal container sheltering a nuclear reactor was not affected by an explosion that destroyed the building it's in.

Yukio Edano says the radiation around the plant did not rise after the blast but instead is decreasing. He added that pressure in the reactor was also decreasing. Pressure and heat have been building at the nuclear reactor since an earthquake and tsunami Friday caused its cooling system to fail.

An explosion Saturday blew out the walls of the building housing the reactor. The government has ordered people within a 12-mile (20-kilometer) radius of the plant in Fukushima to evacuate the area.

A building housing a reactor has been destroyed by an explosion at a power plant in Japan's earthquake and tsunami-stricken region.

Officials fear a meltdown at the reactor, which lost its cooling system. Yesterday's double disaster, which pulverized Japan's northeastern coast, has left hundreds dead or missing. Smoke poured out of the building in the region crippled by a massive earthquake and tsunami.

Japan's nuclear safety agency said pressure inside the reactor had risen to abnormal levels and radiation levels inside the facility had surged to 1,000 times more than normal.

Another official said the utility that runs the Fukushima Daiichi plant is reporting that several workers may have been injured. Meanwhile, Japan launched a massive, military-led rescue operation today to the stricken area.

By Saturday morning, the government had declared emergencies at two reactors and planned drastic steps to relieve pressure in one. The Japanese Defense ministry said it sent troops trained for chemical attack to the plant in case of a serious radiation leak.

Japan has declared a state of emergency at another nuclear power plant after a cooling system at its three reactor units failed following a massive earthquake. There has been no radiation leak.

Japan's nuclear safety agency is also set to order a plant operator of another plant to release slightly radioactive vapor to protect the reactor from damage.

Altogether, five reactor units -- two at the Fukushima No. 1 plant and three at nearby Fukushima No. 2 plant -- are in a state of emergency. All five plants have shut down after the massive quake Friday.

Nuclear Power is very, very dangerous for life on Earth. Let's BE HONEST!

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Mar 12, 2011 8:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Explosion at Japan nuke plant, disaster toll rises

In this video image taken from NTV Japan via APTN, smoke rises from Unit 1 of Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant in Okumamachi, Fukushima prefecture, Japan, Saturday, March 12, 2011. Government spokesman Yukio Edano said the explosion destroyed the exterior walls of the building where the reactor is placed, but not the metal housing enveloping the nuclear reactor.

bilde?Site=J7&Date=20110312&Category=NEWS12&ArtNo=110312001&Ref=V1&MaxW=318&Border=0

The explosion was caused by hydrogen interacting with oxygen outside the reactor. The hydrogen was formed when the superheated — and increasingly brittle — metal container of the fuel rods came in contact with water being poured over it to prevent a meltdown.

Officials have not given specific radiation readings for the area, though they said they were elevated before the blast: At one point, the plant was releasing each hour the amount of radiation a person normally absorbs from the environment each year.

Virtually any increase in ambient radiation can raise long-term cancer rates, and authorities were planning to distribute iodine to residents in the area, according to the International Atomic Energy Agency. Iodine counteracts the effects of radiation.

bilde?Site=J7&Date=20110312&Category=NEWS12&ArtNo=110312001&Ref=AR&MaxW=318&Border=0

Police officers wearing gas masks patrol in the area of the Fukushima power plant's Unit 1 in Okumamachi, Fukushima Prefecture (state), northern Japan, Saturday, March 12, 2011, amid fears that a part of the plant could meltdown after being hit by a powerful earthquake and tsunami Friday.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Mar 12, 2011 9:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

video of Nuke Plant explosion - 2:28
Uploaded to YouTube by AlJazeeraEnglish on Mar 12, 2011

This is an excellent news package by AlJazeeraEnglish. After the devastating earthquake off the coast of north-east Japan damaged the cooling system of several reactors at Fukushima's nuclear power facility, a large explosion appears to have blown the external walls and roof off one of the reactor buildings.

Al Jazeera's Sonia Gallego reports on what this means for the safety of the plant - and of the thousands of people who live nearby.

In other words, which way is the wind blowing right now? People downwind will be in the Nuclear Fallout Zone. DownWind IS a Bad Place To Be!

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Poster: Granola Pilgrim Date: Mar 11, 2011 8:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Hey now, some of my favorite people including myself are cack-handed.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Mar 11, 2011 8:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

or crack-headed

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Poster: Granola Pilgrim Date: Mar 11, 2011 9:11am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Sounds like somebody has been talking to my wife.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Mar 11, 2011 10:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

When I say "pray" I don not necessarily mean I am looking towards some fat bearded dude with an overinflated sense of self to make everything OK. Or God either.

Seriously, can't one just pray to the human spirit we all have to help those in need and to give strength to the folks who will no doubtably be putting themselves in harms way over the next days/weeks/months to come?

To me the word pray does not necessarily denote a blind devotion and belief in some ominpresent power that guides and directs all things. The word marriage does.

This post was modified by SomeDarkHollow on 2011-03-11 18:09:06

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Mar 11, 2011 10:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

>To me the word pray does not necessarily denote a blind devotion and belief in some ominpresent power that guides and directs all things. The word marriage does.

Heh - points for your funnies ...

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 11, 2011 10:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

I totally understand the feeling of helplessness in the face of disaster and the strong desire to see some other force intervene to make things right where we cannot. I just wish that there was a better word for it than prayer and, as I said, I'd rather that 'other force' was a well trained and equipped band of my fellow humans rather than some capricious supernatural being who, on past showing, you wouldn't trust an inch. But I also understand that when some people say prayer petitioning their deity is exactly what they have in mind.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Mar 11, 2011 11:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

"And I've got second sight
I got amazing powers of observation
And that is how I know, when I try to get through
On the telephone to you, there'll be nobody home"

Suffice it to say this could easily be a summation of your views on religion.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 11, 2011 12:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Jack was fervent in his post.
Why do you expect perfection?

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 11, 2011 3:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

So fervent can't be misguided? And where, pray tell (to coin a phrase), do you glean a seeking after perfection in what I said? Do you advocate cutting slack for the wrong-headed if they really mean it, man?

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 11, 2011 5:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Fervent can be misguided and often is.

>the self-same deity who you believe made the world, but apparently did it in such a crack-handed way as to make earthquakes inevitable?

I read a sense of a betrayed desire for perfection there.

I'm not sure exactly of third item, and I'm not just writing that to be a smart ass. Are you referring to forgiveness?

>wrong-headed
Are you implying intent? Perceived evil intent that can not be forgiven?

>if they really mean it
I'll take that with a big helping of sarcasm. Is it always wrong or naive or foolish to forgive?

Death sucks. Especially of the variety in Japan today. You can shake your fist at God or turn your back, but one day we all will confront death just a few breaths away. And we will deal with what may come. I look for something different then being worm food. If that's what one believes, then God Bless. Either way, it all comes down to faith.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 12, 2011 1:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

If that's your reading then its a highly imaginative one that probably says more about you than it does about me - it's also totally, laughably, wrong.

As to the rest of what you say, the forgiveness and intent part, I really have no idea what you're referring to or how in any way this leads on from anything I said previously. Seriously, not a clue.

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Poster: Jesus Freek Date: Mar 12, 2011 8:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Oh insolent pundit, I clutch the drab sentiment that you are one that puts the intrinsic excellence of their own thoughts at a preposterously high level. Though I'm positive that I am beyond erroneous in my cogitative belief, it seems that you place more accentuation in proving you possess the empirical IQ points than in allowing the opinion of others that differs from yours. Though, I can say with absolute abandon that I am not the only one here to marvel at the big brain on Rob.
Lest the laymen not be confused; I think you are more concerned with your grandiose posturing of self servitude than what may be life truth for others, with the only surceasing being the wanton stroking of your own ego.
And to furthermore strip away the multitudinous layers of bullshit; what ever your own personal belief system holds near and dear, it is far more important to live this universally fractional millisecond of life doing what is right, than it is trying to convince others you are right.
Doing what is right = love and compassion for others.
Being right = love for self, usually at the expense of others.
The truth is, there is freedom in allowing circumstances to be what they are and people to be who they are, whether you agree with them or not . Really. Even when it comes to poverty or war or disease or earthquakes.
I await your next equivocal post with something bordering on absolute veneration. My digits are limbered on the pages of the dictionary.
Flay me with your irrefragable rebuttal.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Mar 12, 2011 12:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0liNBOnSqD8

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 12, 2011 12:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Hmmm--you better hit that dictionary a bit harder...here's my question to all of a particular faith: what would it look like if you'd be born in an entirely different culture, with an entirely different belief system, and an entirely different creation story to go with it? No one can ever explain how it is that supposed "deep seated beliefs" and such apparent "inherent matters of morality" (ie, people finally admit "well, I just know this...or that...to be true!") completely vanish if one admits you'd be entirely different if you'd be raised as a Zulu in Natal, or a Bushman in SW Africa, or wherever/whatever.

They can't all be "true" (given the many gross contradictions among the currently recognized 890-1200+ independently derived cultures ID'd to date...depending on who's counting of course), and the distortion associated with classical, western theological dominance, an artefact if there ever was one, masks what is a fundamental flaw in these matters of faith...

To say, as Kant so wrongly implied, that to deny something puts the acceptance of it on an equal footing is the stooopidist thing I can imagine.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 12, 2011 5:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Your statement on perfection seems clear to me. The quote is right there.
I didn't understand the second half of your post. If you do not understand my garbled reading, then it would not be surprising that two degrees of garbled-ness away you would have no clue. I didn't one degree away.

I just really want to know what you thought rob. I am not seeking or wanting a fight. I know that has not been the case several times in the past.
Maybe I'm in my second phase of IA evolution. ;-)

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 12, 2011 9:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Ok, rewind. Here's what I said:

"So, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this supposed deity you insist we should all be praying to not in fact the self-same deity who you believe made the world, but apparently did it in such a cack-handed way as to make earthquakes inevitable?"

How you take the mighty leap in the dark from there to "a betrayed desire for perfection" is a bizarre interpretation of what I said. I'm not shedding bitter tears at the failure of the deity to make the world perfect, I'm expressing my frustration at the idea of inviting people to pray for assistance to the guy who, as the alleged creator of all things, is responsible for causing the mess in the first place.

Now don't run away with the idea that because I talk about a deity in abstract terms that in any way I believe in one, because I don't. I'm an atheist. And this is not a matter of faith, it's about a complete lack of compelling evidence for the contrary position.

Now, this is the one that was the real headscratcher. How do you get from "wrong-headed" to:

"Are you implying intent? Perceived evil intent that can not be forgiven?"

That one I just could not unpick.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 12, 2011 11:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

If a deity made the world, 'why would he create such suffering' is the root of where your quote goes. Rob, I know you are an atheist, which I do consider a belief system that incorporates faith. After a year of talking/reading here with you Rob, I know facets of what you choose to share. One thing that grabs you is others statements that all must practice a specific faith, which Jack fervently did in his post. I understand your reaction.
But, the atheist winds blow strong here and as a Christian you must choose your words carefully. When contemplation of the replacement of the word prayer is discussed, you know the headwinds are strong. I don't care b/c that is the way it is and I love IA. So, I am willing to go the extra mile not to offend anyone b/c it is easy to do so. I am amazed sometimes with the vigilance with which any stepping outside the acceptable Christian box is met with. But as I said, that is the way it is.

>Do you advocate cutting slack for the wrong-headed if they really mean it, man?
We seem to be kicking this about. I don't understand this sentence Rob. My questions are about trying to understand what you are saying.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Mar 12, 2011 1:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

>Do you advocate cutting slack for the wrong-headed if they really mean it, man?

Can I just add that I personally DO advocate cutting some slack for the wrong-headed ...

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 12, 2011 2:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

And can I just add that certain parties are taking a late night Lydonesque quip altogether too seriously.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 12, 2011 3:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

"you are an atheist, which I do consider a belief system that incorporates faith"

Then you understand very little. It is not a 'belief system' it is a considered stance that rejects faith in favour of evidence and proof. Proof does not require faith and faith does not require proof. You know which side of the equation I'm on.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 12, 2011 4:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Whichever way you would like to spin it, atheism is a belief system. What evidence or proof do you have for such beliefs?
You rely on so called proof to define the limits of one faith over another, with atheism being superior, when we have no evidence that it is. Can you ever give me absolute certainty on anything? It's all a leap of faith. I have seen few atheists admit that.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 12, 2011 4:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Do you actually bother to read and digest what's being said to you before you go off on one of your illogical rants? My atheism is, as I clearly stated, borne out of a lack of any compelling evidence that would lead me to accept the existence of a deity in any shape or form. Of course there's no such thing as absolute certainty; science always has been adjusted and revised as new discoveries are made and tested.

I'll throw it back at you - where's there a shred of evidence to support your stance?

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 12, 2011 4:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Hiding behind disparagement does not answer the central question of atheism as belief system. Let's take the 'negative' of a picture of one of the major faith's. You reject these religions thoughts. But the contours of your own beliefs are in reaction to what you oppose. You present nothing other then opposition.
How can you reject God when nothing can empirically be certain? How can you look at the universe and then our scale in it and believe that you know all, and see all, and then believe when you say there is nothing out there larger than your understanding. That's a lot of faith.

Jesus of Nazareth was the son of a carpenter, who towards the end of his life became a rabbi. His teachings and views were original and placed him on the fringes of Judaic thought. He then came into conflict with various factions, and was then crucified by the Romans. That I think we all can agree on.

I had a long, long post here filled with Biblical quotes, but in the end it's simpler. It comes down to my own leap of faith. I guess it comes down to whether you can simply admit that you take a similar leap?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 13, 2011 6:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

I guess you missed it below; this is simply untrue. You are the one stretching for imagining that the converse of something is its equivalent, in form or structure.

This is precisely the same reason "we" stopped talking about science; you persistently confuse and confound these issues (in essence, wanting the non-believer to state: "yup, our systems are equal; you believe in a mythical being, and I make a similar leap of faith to not believe" and "oh yeah, science is just like religion, yup...").

It's absolute blather. And your ref to Kant is both misguided and uninformed. Read him again; although he tackles the error you are making, he wasn't this crude about it.

Sorry, but there is no nice way to put this...

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 13, 2011 8:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Is this a tag team?
No WT, it is the arrogance at the root of not admitting that atheism is a belief system. That somehow, even though there is no basis for this belief system other than faith, atheism can rise above these petty religious concerns of man.
If one states they are an agnostic I can respect that. They don't know. They don't have enough information. They make no claims.
My line of questioning is not blather, but the future of how atheism will be questioned (I am far from the first). You require empirical proof, but there is none for the belief system of atheism.

Atheist Statement No. 1 - 'Atheism declares it does not believe in faith, that science is the way to truth because it does not rely on faith unlike religion. Science does not rely on faith and therefore cannot be biased.'

Rebuttal: Even in science, we still need a certain degree of faith in scientists and researchers since we ourselves cannot possibly verify all their findings to prove that what they are saying is true.

Unless you can verify scientists' findings one by one for yourself, you will have to accept their 'word' at face value. You will have to believe that what they're saying is true. You will have to have 'faith' in their words.

In the past and today, we've had 'scientific errors' committed by scientists. Errors such as scientific facts that were declared as truth but were later found out to be false or in doubt. Global warming, I'm sorry, global cooling, no wrong again, climate change, is the most recent and glaring example.

That science is not based on faith is totally false. Therefore, this refutes the first statement of atheism.

As St. Francis of Assisi said 'Faith is higher than reason. Reason is useless.... unless you believe.'

Atheist Statement No. 2 - 'Science is based only on purely objective facts, while religion is partially subjective and therefore cannot be purely objective.'

Rebuttal: Science relies on objectivity, and needs to utilize the scientific method. The scientific method relies on observation, experimentation, data-gathering, etc. (See I do know!)

Once science loses its objectivity, or becomes partially subjective, it loses its credibility as a discipline.

Therein lies the problem. The scientific method does provide purely objective data, but scientists still have to 'interpret' them. Since scientists are only human (and therefore flawed), the interpretation of the data becomes mixed with personal opinions and becomes "partially subjective". This cannot be avoided. Even through peer review.

Scientists are human beings with different beliefs, religions, philosophies, and come from various countries and cultures throughout the globe that all inform aspects of their scientific data.

Atheist statement number 2 is therefore false.

Atheist Statement No. 3) 'Science is better than religion because it relies on an objective method - the scientific method. This method produces truth because it is based on objective data, experimentations, logic, etc. Religion does not use an objective method and is based on opinion, speculation, etc. For example, it lacks 'scientific proof' on 'miracles' in the Bible.'

Rebuttal: Science does rely on an objective method, but by what authority does the 'scientific method' produce truth? By what authority does science possess when it says we must believe science because it utilizes the 'scientific method'?

One cannot state that science is an authority of truth simpy because it uses the scientific method. It's like saying 'I therefore conclude that science produces truth because it uses the scientific method.'

By what authority?

How will you prove using the scientific method does produce truth? Because it's 'scientific'? Because 'science' said so? (The burning test tube?) Again, the question, 'By what authority does science have by proclaiming to be the truth?'

The statement, 'The results of the scientific method should be followed" is unscientific because it is a value statement that does not get its authority from anywhere but itself.

Atheist Statement No. 4) 'The scientific method is true because it works and because it is axiomatic.'

Rebuttal: Sounds a lot like faith to me. Who decides what is axiomatic? Does the scientific method decide it? That makes it circular if it does. If not, then it is not scientific itself.

I would have to do all the experiments to come to that conclusion. Other than that, I take it on faith that all of the scientists who did the experiments and reviewed them and tested them are not lying to me.

You cannot use the 'scientific method' as a reason to make science as an authority of truth, simply because the only way to prove science as the truth is to use the 'scientific method', which is flawed. The logic is circular and therefore unable to prove that it is not a system of belief.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 13, 2011 10:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

You're going to have to do a lot better by way of argument than cutting and pasting from some other fucker's blog and passing it off as your own. (Did I miss the attribution? No, don't think so.)

http://theseekeroftruth.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-atheism-is-wrong.html

He, like you, has not the first clue as to how science works. If you're going to keep up this persistence in calling it a belief system then I challenge you to produce an alternative 'belief system' that could have produced the modern world complete with the computer that allows you to broadcast your specious nonsense.

Everyone ought to believe in something and I believe this conversation is at an end. I'm only going to crack my head against the wall of your foolishness so many times. If you want to walk away thinking you've won, fine, I really couldn't give a damn.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Mar 13, 2011 11:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You say black I say white
You say bark I say bite
You say shark I say hey man
Jaws was never my scene
And I don't like Star Wars
You say Rolls I say Royce
You say God give me a choice
You say Lord I say Christ
I don't believe in Peter Pan
Frankenstein or Superman
All I wanna do is

Bicycle bicycle bicycle
I want to ride my bicycle bicycle bicycle
I want to ride my bicycle
I want to ride my bike
I want to ride my bicycle.....

Took my nine year old to a cover/tribute band last night and they were freakin' great. She did the Wayne's World headbang to Bohemian Rhapsody and shouted the above. I couldn't believe how good it was. Then we got up for church this morning - ACC Tourney Final. She's now shouting "Go to Hell Carolina, Go to Hell!"

OK - does my hijack close this thread? We all wish the best for folks in Japan. My buddy still hasn't heard the fate of his bride-to-be or her daughter

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 13, 2011 11:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I hope your friend hears from his bride-to-be. I hope she and her daughter are O.K.
Now some BB!

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 13, 2011 12:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The Wayne's World headbang is infinitely better than banging your head against a wall. You'll be pleased to know I'm done here, bd. Tom's is the only brand of Petty-ness I feel the need for now. Going to go and indulge my Mojo.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 13, 2011 11:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

You are correct. I did forget to attribute. Thank-you for gently reminding me.
So when you are challenged it's 'foolishness'? This was a discussion that began when I simply asked you why do you expect perfection (in relation to this thread topic)? Throughout your posts nothing but arrogance, bile, and name calling, which you did not receive in turn. Believe you me, I am done with these discussions with you. Emotions always seem to get the better of you.

Though, in a way it is kinda funny how you pick and choose.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 13, 2011 11:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The End is nigh... thank the (non-existent) lord

Never at any time did I 'ask for perfection'. Again and again I have pointed out to you that this was a total misinterpretation on your part of what I actually did say.

'Forgot to attribute' my hairy arse. You tried, and failed, to pass off someone else's blatherings as your own. This is, I guarantee you, the first time I've felt any emotion in this exchange, and it's not a positive one.


Now fuck off.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 13, 2011 12:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The End is nigh... thank the (non-existent) lord

Is that after dinner and a kiss?

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 13, 2011 8:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Looking around me I see no evidence to support the notion that the universe had a divine creator who, in some shape or form, maintains a presence here, and who takes some passing interest, benign or otherwise, in human affairs. This is an empirical position; it is not a belief system.

If, and it’s a big if, you choose to consider science as a belief system, then it is one in which its beliefs and assumptions are constantly being tested and revised. If a hypothesis fails the test of experiment then it’s wrong – we reject it and move on. Faith plays no part in the set up.

If you can present me with repeatable, measurable, incontrovertible evidence for the existence of god then I’ll have to change my mind, but this is the challenge you consistently refuse to take up, falling back on blithe leaps of faith as justification for your stance.

I can look at the universe and know that there are structures beyond human comprehension on scales that are simply mind boggling, but I can have some glimmering of an understanding of how it works. I know absolutely that I’m a very, very insignificant part of the universe, and yet feel no need whatsoever to conjure up a divinity to get me through the day.


Your mini-bio of Jesus seemed utterly pointless and irrelevant.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 13, 2011 10:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

I am not trying to convince you of God's existence, just that atheism is equally a belief system. My argument is under WT's post.
You are right. The mini bio was lame. I ought to have edited that out.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 13, 2011 2:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Sorry, like Rob, I am "done" here just as I was the first go round (go back to those threads and see my consistency if you like).

And, your consistency in grabbing some twit's strawman: no scientist in his/her right mind talks about "truth"...

That is where this critique starts and STOPS; you've got a lame reference (the blog or whatever above) as TRUTH is not an issue in science (it's unknowable, and the domain of your area of interest: faith, morality, etc., etc.). So, the minute I read that in your long post...the red light goes off, it's an indication of a major miscomprehension.

Sorry--well, at this point, just fed-up--but you simply are wrong about how you typify science, atheists, and so on and so forth....

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 13, 2011 6:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Hey, Thanks for getting involved WT. It's so unappreciated. What made you feel compelled to get involved when we had both said no mas to each other months ago on this very subject? Thanks for taking an ugly and sad situation and making it worse.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Mar 13, 2011 9:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

I wrote a song about you two and made a video.

http://www.archive.org/details/CharlieGibsonVsMelSheen_11376

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 13, 2011 9:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Don't take it so hard--seriously; it's just arcane ivory tower stuff at one level.

This analogy might help you understand MY frustration (and make clear to you, I think, that YOU should be able to easily dismiss me by adhering to your fundamental propositions)...again this is about me.

Imagine I am CLIFF. Now, imagine I have caught a big fish, and I tell you about it. You reply: "I don't see how it can be that big". Imagine I explain to you how I've measured it, but you tell me you don't believe in "that" system (metric? whatever) of measurement. I become frustrated trying to explain it because it's not a belief system; it's a way of knowing. Period.

We just can't talk about it; you think it's something I know it is not. You know something else, some other measuring system, and tell me "that's what you're using, CLIFF!" and I keep saying "no, it's not!"

That is really as simple as it gets; that's all we keep doing. In the end, you believe I am confused about which system I am using, and I don't believe that; my system is not about faith, even in statements other scientists make, etc. It's about a way of knowing, but only about simple materialist issues--you can claim the important ground; all of it. You get all the big issues in this world, and can run with it--I get stuck with trivia.

Really.

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Poster: SpacedAgain Date: Mar 14, 2011 2:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Early Christians and Muslims don't believe that Jesus was crucified.

I agree though that atheism is unscientific (lack of proof isn't proof) and science is a belief system, "consensus reality." That's the thrust of the modern philosophy even before post-modernism, and social science of science took it further.

It's fairly clear in signposts like "all that's solid melts into the air," modern painting of rocks floating away from the mooring of ground, Wittgenstein getting stuck on his ladder, and yes even psychedelics (they fueled interest in traditional knowledge).

Someone may say they believe in "mother nature" but where does it end? The matrix?

Some folks trust to reason
Others trust to might
I don't trust to nothing
But I know it come out right

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Poster: vapors Date: Mar 12, 2011 4:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Sorry to butt in.
My assessment is that Rob is no spinner.
On the other hand, you did once mention some affiliation with them.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 12, 2011 4:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

v, mind like a trap! Indeed, Yes. Briefly. Thankfully.

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Poster: vapors Date: Mar 12, 2011 6:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Thankfully brief?
Your discussion here puts me in a certain mood, but not one I feel much like expounding upon in a public Grateful Dead forum, although your persistent proposed premise that one is taking a leap of faith, regardless, does not set well with me. Faith and belief systems are integral to many peoples lives and outlooks - I can only hope that yours are based upon some solid life experiences of your own. Probably my most fundamental spiritual experiences (ie: that I actively participate in) revolve around music – and as stated elsewhere in a post this evening, the music sounds much better when dancing!

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 12, 2011 9:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

The Spinners in '88/'89 were tending to a view of Garcia as a new Christian prophet. Once that became clear I was running out the door. When I saw the type of gender roles enforced it just made me run faster. So, thankfully brief.

I don't quite understand your post v, and I don't want to guesstimate. I am interested in what you have to say.

This post was modified by micah6vs8 on 2011-03-13 05:39:32

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Poster: vapors Date: Mar 13, 2011 7:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

While there is much we could discuss here, I do not feel so inclined at present and apologize again for jumping in. Thanks for sharing your experience though – I had been wondering about that.

Where I place myself today with regard to matters spiritual is the result of a long, varied and sometimes colorful exploration of what it means to be an individual on this earth, and what responsibilities that may require of us. I wish to be an instrument of peace, as so beautifully stated in the prayer of St. Francis. But experience has provoked in me a sense of skepticism about faith in anything other than my own abilities and desires to do right, even as these frequently evade me.

I believe that I grasp what both you and Rob put forth, and have to say that I am more cynical now than ever before regarding religion and faith. I wish to let this go now, and pick this song as a sign off. Peace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtgXus3eiII&;feature=related

This post was modified by vapors on 2011-03-13 14:46:45

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Mar 12, 2011 1:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Count me several degrees of garbledom away from understanding what either one of you is saying :)

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 12, 2011 2:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

In future I'll type louder for the benefit of the hard of understanding.

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Poster: Granola Pilgrim Date: Mar 11, 2011 6:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

I've been praying about this all morning. The video and pictures I've seen are truly humbling.

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Poster: leftwinger57 Date: Mar 11, 2011 3:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

Looking back and seeing how awful the Kobe quake was, w/the roadways toppled and the port was in shambles , but this, the destruction is mind blowing proveing once again don't
fuck w mother nature.This can be even worse than the Indonesia quake only in the rspect Japan is so far technically advanded and seems to have more to lose. I am not comparing people here just infrstructure....

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Poster: leftwinger57 Date: Mar 12, 2011 2:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

This is one of the worst quakes in histiory, not that it helps anyone or anything. The one thing that I did get out of this is that this side of the Pacific Rim including the U.S has a tsunami warning system planted all over the Pacific ocean. The Indian Ocean side has no such warning devices or definately did not when their's hit so just maybe forworned is better than no warning at all ....LW

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 12, 2011 3:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

The Indian Ocean Tsunami Warning System was activated in June 2006, its set up largely prompted by the events of 26 December 2004.

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Poster: Granola Pilgrim Date: Mar 12, 2011 4:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 8.9 Earthquake & 13 ft. Tsunami Honshu Japan

I've now seen there has been an explosion of a nuclear reactor. Unfortunately it seems that it's going to get a lot worse.